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atheism, Christianity, Debate, History, Logic, Reasoning, religion, Satan, Spiritual Wafare
The first sin was not the eating of an apple (or even a pomegranate). No, it began when mankind (or at least Eve) gave an ear to the Serpent, or so the story goes, at least according to my old Bible-as-Literature prof. I try to keep that in mind whenever I find myself cast in the role of that Serpent, or at least one of his servants.
I am speaking of course of those moments when someone tells me that I worship Satan, or that I serve him. It is common enough to see this charge leveled at atheists, at least on the net. I doubt its occurrence is limited to that context.
I must say that it took me some time to wrap my mind around the concept. You might think it would be a little difficult to worship an entity in which you don’t believe. I certainly did. But it turns out to be remarkably easy to serve him, he does all the work for you, even without letting you know about it. I have been reassured many times that my actions serve the dark lord, regardless of my own conscious intent. I have also been told that deep down I know this to be the case, whether I will admit it or not. It’s always fascinating to find out what I know and what I believe, especially when it has the makings of a good horror story.
Just think of it; you have two competing stories!
– On the one hand, I would like to think of my story as one of a sincere guy tapping away at the keyboard in the hopes that he can present a reasonable case for a position that he thinks is correct. In the end maybe I can teach something to someone, or perhaps learn something from a well-reasoned response. We could call this the intellectual exchange model of the disc… hey you! Wake up, dammit!
– Okay, on the other hand, you have a minion of Lucifer operating under the auspices of the Dark Lord himself to invest ordinary binary code with the force of evil and send it out to work its insidious wonders on unsuspecting believers. The argument itself is hardly important; it serves as a vehicle for some sort of insidious power.
Honestly, it doesn’t take much effort to figure out which is the more interesting story. (Sigh!) And if you too count yourself as a vocal non-believer, this whole thing probably rings a bell or three in your own experience.
In truth, there is little one could do to answer such a claim, that one serves Satan, because of course every answer you give would be subject to the same suspicion. This is why I am inclined to think of the story of Adam and Eve here. …and of the Serpent. The trouble really does begin for that narrative in the decision to listen to that serpent as it is an act of disloyalty to God. To speak with His enemy at all is itself unthinkable! Subsequent troubles could hardly be surprising; they are the narrative consequence of willfully opening oneself to an evil message. If that’s the way some believers see the input of atheists, then that doesn’t bode well for anything along the lines of, um, constructive dialogue.
I do think this is the model behind the charge that atheists serve Satan. It not merely some bit of empirical confusion about what we do and don’t believe, so much as it is a warning about the nature of any message we happen to carry. That is precisely the point of casting atheists in the role of Satan’s servants; it is in effect to construe our every word and deed as an evil which one ought not to give reasonable consideration. It isn’t really even the metaphysics of this proposition that matters; it’s the pragmatics. Simply put, the moral of the story is don’t listen to anyone who casts any sort of doubt on God.
I have tried myself and seen others attempt a range of different responses to this kind of charge, but lately I am inclined to accept it.
I’ll be your huckleberry.
I don’t mean to say that I actually intend harm to others, but I am simply done trying to convince certain parties that I (or other atheists) can be good without God. If these are the terms, then I sometimes want to say ‘so be it’. I will not give those who make such accusations the satisfaction of trying to plead innocence from the bottom of a poisoned well.
The whole accusation smacks of manipulation of course, but it is not merely manipulation, because some people actually do seem to believe it, or at least they say that they do. In its own right, this sort of charge is actually a fascinating example of the limitations of reasoning.
Another of my old professors, Maurice Finnochiaro, used to talk about the study of argumentation as an historical phenomenon. He was interested in meta-argumentation, arguments about arguments. And in its own way this little gift of frustration for an unbeliever is in fact an argument about an argument. It is a clear and concise statement about the prospects for constructive discussion, albeit a rather pessimistic one.
The viewpoint in question is very much informed by the outlook of Spiritual Warfare. It reflects a range of suppositions about the spiritual powers at play in the world. It is the same sort of thinking that finds Satanic messages in so many rock&roll lyrics, Devil Worshipers in Day-care centers everywhere, and demons in Hentai images. It is the same thinking that leads to talk of protecting baby-Christians (those new in the faith) from exposure to other views, and it is the same sort of thinking that plays havoc with the lives of homosexuals in Uganda and other places where some Charismatic Christians go to press for policies they could never manage in the west. But seriously, my list of horribles aside, the point is that there is a body of religious tenets behind the sort of charge that atheists serve Satan. If we are inconvenienced by the whole thing, chances are we should count our blessings.
…though we won’t actually want to call them ‘blessings’ of course.
But the charge of Satanic worship, absurd though it may be to the mind of an unbeliever is a good reminder of the reflexive nature of reasoning. It would be a swell world for rationalists if we could divide all the ideas of humanity up into those about which we reason and then a separate list of ideas about how to reason about the items on the first list. It would be swell if that second set rested safely outside the scope of disagreement, a sort of neutral arbiter in our disputes. But it just doesn’t work like that. And in this as in any other debate, one must remember that among our disagreements we often also differ on the significance of the disagreements themselves. In other words, part of the argument is also always about the nature of argumentation itself.
Sometimes we are fortunate enough to discuss (or even debate) people with whom we share enough assumptions about the nature of reasoning to proceed with a constructive discussion, even in the face of vast disagreements over issues like belief in God. Folks may not flip their whole belief orientation on the basis of a single conversation (or even thirty of them), but sometimes we shift a little, modify an assumption, or even simply come to appreciate the aesthetics of a well argued point from the other side. Such discussions can be rewarding and pleasant exchanges, …if that is, one starts with a range of assumptions that makes it possible.
Some people just don’t make those same assumptions. When someone says that atheists serve Satan, they are sending a very clear signal that they are not down for the discussion, at least on any terms which would give an unbeliever a chance. To do so would already be a betrayal of their faith, and a mistake exposing them to tremendous evil (evil carried by you and I, my unbelieving friends). It is also a signal that the clear significance of your words (to that person) lies not in the quality of your reasoning so much as an impersonal force over which you may not have conscious control. That force will be the focus of the accuser, not the cogency of any argument you make.
So, what’s a devil to do?
Honestly, I don’t know.
Damn me anyhow!
I have LOTS of ponders and thinks about this one. My eyes are buggy though, from reading all day. I might shout out a feeling or so at each phrase, and then end up with writing a blog of my own. I might like to look at the nature of arguing about arguing. There was this biology professor once, who spoke of a story that rather forced one to hold the idea that cows eat grass and this is bad for the rainforests, therefore, we should be veggies. He used to laugh when doing this one and I had a difficult time not guffawing and snorting while I watched and walked alongside all of the students in the class. I’ll come back and read again when I’m feeling like expressing more coherently. Thanks for the ponder.
Sounds like an interesting classroom discussion. Glad you stopped by. 🙂
I don’t pay much attention to the “christians” who run around saying that other people worship the devil or other similar nonsense. I find the ones who do that tend to be the most non christ-like people out there. Unfortunately, their ignorance and hatred can make them dangerous, so perhaps I shouldn’t ignore them…
I think it’s a control issue; those who advance such claims are making an explicit bid for control of the conversation. The vocabulary will be theirs, not yours, and the main themes of the discussion will be set by them, not you. It goes hand in hand with other aspects of spiritual warfare, namely the notion that one must control the messages people are exposed to. I don’t really try to debate with such folks anymore, because the terms are simply unacceptable. I do think it’s interesting behavior, and kind of sad actually. One of the best people I ever met on the best was an 18 year old (home-schooled) girl who was caught up in that way of thinking. For a year or two she struggled with it and said some of the nastiest things I’ve ever heard from a fundamentalist Christian. …and eventually she worked her way out of it. It was damned good to see, not so much because of the loss of faith as the loss of fear.
The people that claim to be Christian but are ignorant and hateful are not Christians at all. Not all people who claim to be Christians really are. Have you ever read of the Pharisees in the New Testament? They claimed to be Christian, but Jesus claimed they were of the Devil. I’m not trying to change your worldview, but I would advise you to change how you view Christians. If you are going to make an argument against Christianity, please try to understand it. In John 13 it says Christians will be identified by their love.
The Pharisees never claimed to be Christian. Jesus argued with them on differing views on Judaism.
This is why believers like to think atheism is a religion. It puts atheists on a level playing field, worshiping Satan instead of the God of one’s interlocutor. Because each one has a slightly different god, depending on that individual’s prejudices.
…But why do you hate God so much? All 3 of Him.
How can you hate something that doesn’t exist? For the most part I judge people based on their character rather than the religious label. But they’re on my shit list when they act out the vilest impulses of the voices in their heads.
I assume Daniel’s post was playful sarcasm. Otherwise, you took the words right off my keyboard.
I did too, having looked at his website.
Lol, well put.
That’s pretty much the answer I give to my mother every time she asks it (which is every time she remembers my “religion”.
Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever had a productive discussion with any believer who took the atheism-is-a-religion tack. The thoughtful and challenging discussions have always been with folks who didn’t try that gambit. I do think one could ask more reasonable questions about whether or not certain atheists, or certain varieties of behavior associated with atheism might be comparable to that of certain believers and their behaviors. But it helps if the author recognizes the analogical nature of the argument. Those going for the quick equation are playing the short con; it’s bad omen for the rest of the conversation.
There are certainly atheists who deploy the Royal We, which is halfway there. I’ve always responded as an individual, since some atheists are idiots. The old Richard Dawkins community forum in 1990s was like the last gunfight at the OK Corral – brazen bigotry to match any fundamentalist Christian, with as little evidence of reason.
I am so glad you stopped by my blog. I always find it interesting how like minds find one another. Growing up in Christian church gives one lots to ponder. And ponder we did, now my husband and 2 adult daughters are atheists. As a young couple our closest friends were the pastor and his wife. After many years and their divorce and her marring her girlfriend yes girlfriend, we invited him over to our home. Upon telling him we no longer do the God thing he questioned why and never RSVP’ed to any of our party invites! lol! Quite telling!
It’s a damned shame to see the behavior that these ideas produce at times. It’s even worse when you see basically good people engaging in such conduct because they feel its an obligation due to their beliefs.
I think it’s sad that all the Christians you seem to have come across are so blinkered and accusatory. I am a Christian with many friends who are not, and I have seen no reason to see them as tools of the devil. I guess it is only natural for people who believe they have the answer to want others to see it as well. There have been many good arguments put forward for Christianity by some very learned people, so my contribution would be small. I could only speak from my experiences and encounters with God. I have also worked with many scientists, some of whom believe and some don’t. I hope you have better experiences with Christians in the future.
You hit the nail on the head with the matter of how to conduct an argument. An argument is just one more form of communication, and communication is key to solving all problems. Of course, like having an argument with anyone who doesn’t share your view over the issue at hand, it takes willingness to listen on both parties as well as willingness to rationally communicate your point of view.
While there are plenty of pig-headed atheists out there who have little consideration for the faith of the religious, it certainly seems that the problem is largely the other way around. Christians believe wholeheartedly that they are helping save you if they turn you from atheism. But… as atheists, don’t we believe that whatever reality happens to be, it is better to face it than live a lie? If the truth was God, then we would believe it. Rationale, meta arguments, communication; these are devices of learning the truth. To argue against rationale with anything other than rationale, such is so often the case when arguing religion, is to deny the truth from the get-go.
Even as an atheist, I believe people have the right to faith, if that’s what they choose. But to deny the evidence of the world around them, to stop themselves from listening, I can’t accept. To ask questions is to evolve… although there’s another argument!
Thank you for stopping by and liking my blog. I have a lot of sympathy with your views here – having once been an atheist myself but now a Christian believer [for many years , I’m very pleased to say]. When I was an atheist I tried very much to be a good person and live a life doing good to others. Of course – I hadn’t realised then that these ethics had their roots in Judaism and Christianity.
Unfortunately , it seems the sort of Christians you have come across are not the best example and maybe should be categorised as ‘religious’ people. Jesus’ most stern words were for the Pharisees – the religious people of His own day. To the rest I think He would say [as He did on the cross] – Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
My big sin as an atheist was to ignore God – but that was in my ignorance, and in some ways I felt afterwards that atheists are nearer to God than they think . God wants honesty from us and in the end , after much soul-searching, I had to admit I could see Him at work in changed lives – mine ultimately being one of them.
Bless you, Eileen
Reblogged this on Master Nick and commented:
Today, I’m reblogging a brilliant piece that incidentally demonstrates why I must pick my battles with great care.
In previous blogs, I’ve addressed our preconceptions about public nudity, breastfeeding, and the notion that the way to stem a shooting spree epidemic is more guns. I dare say that anyone willing and able to read and comprehend my pleas for sanity most likely wouldn’t need the perspective in the first place.
I intend to focus my future writing efforts on the arts; fiction, painting, and news of upcoming shows.
You are welcome to enjoy the ride!
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There is an s in paragraph 7 that belongs in paragraph 9. I am a grammar Nazi, yet my fingers are fat sometimes, too. My wife proofreads for me to catch these things.
“Satan” simply means adversary, so the charge is a bit redundant. You are opposing the idea of God. That is adversarial. The people who are hurling these charges, of course, are probably using it as an emotionally laden word and one which is intended to put the fear of eternal damnation from God in your heart.
Now, if that isn’t an incentive to join their community, I don’t know what is!
As you know, I am a believer. I keep trying to remind church people that in the only picture Jesus gave us of the Last Judgment, there was no church, no faith requirement, no doctrinal statements; only what they did or didn’t do for the most vulnerable and ill-treated in society. And everybody is surprised! In other words, one cannot do these things to get to heaven. It has to be part of you. This is why I don’t care if someone is an atheist or a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian or whatever. We are all muddling through trying to figure things out. Just don’t be an asshole.
I think the root of the problem, as you’ve indicated, is the refusal to even pay attention to other viewpoints. This, in turn, makes me wonder how strong these people really are in their faith. If you firmly hold to Christian ideals, why would your mind be changed simply because you read an atheist blog or listened to a heavy metal record?
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