Tags
Apologetics, Argumentation, atheism, Ethics, Morality, Narrative, Philosophy, Rhetoric, Unbelief

Saw this in Cedar City this summer (I think Moni took the picture.)
Atheists can’t provide a sound basis for their morality.
…it’s the kinder gentler version of “atheists can’t be moral,” which is a common theme among Christian apologists. To be sure, some folks go back and forth between the two messages, but at least some apologists do seem to keep a clear distinction between the claim that atheists cannot be moral and the claim that whatever morals we may have, we simply cannot justify them in rational terms.
Some folks express this position in the form of an architectural metaphor; we have no foundation for our ethics, so the argument goes. Alternatively, we cannot ground our moral principles in a sound basis of judgement; our morals aren’t based on anything objective, and so on. The sheer physicality of this rhetoric is always striking to me.
I know.
Metaphors happen.
Still, I can’t help thinking some of those using this language could stand to think about those metaphors a little bit. It would be nice if they at least recognized them as metaphors. As often as not, I suspect many of those producing such messages take these terms rather literally.
All that aside, lately, I’ve been thinking about this less in terms of the argument at hand and more in terms of the narrative about that argument. Questions about the nature of morality go back a rather long way in the history of western philosophy, to say nothing of countless other contexts in which people could ask about what people ought to do and whether or not they can provide a sound reason for their answer. This is not just one ongoing debate; it is many, and while that debate rages on with no likelihood of a clear winner, this story of the unique moral failure of atheism flourishes in its own right. The notion that atheists can’t provide an adequate account of the nature of morality may be a contention to be argued in select circles. It can also be a story told about the difference between us and them.
…in this case, I’m a them. Damn! (Othered in my own blog post.)
***
First an anecdote!
This theme reminds me of a time a college friend took me to see Gary Habermas speak at his church. Habermas is a renowned apologist, so I was expecting to hear an interesting argument in favor of Christianity. Suffice to say that I didn’t. I don’t know how to convey just how unimpressive Habermas was on that occasion. I could hardly believe my ears. To this day, I wonder if I missed something important or if Habermas was just having an exceptionally bad day? I don’t know.
The whole performance got a great deal more interesting though after Habermas stepped down, and the regular pastor for this church took a moment to add a few thoughts of his own. The pastor himself struck me as a fairly nice guy. I couldn’t help but like him, but there I sat listening to him try to put Habermas’ presentation into perspective for his audience. What impressed the pastor was the notion that someone could field a complex and sophisticated argument in favor of the Christian faith. He ended his own comments by saying how good it felt to know that people of intelligence could defend the faith, that smart people did in fact believe in Jesus and that they could justify that faith.
So, there I sat thinking on the one hand that Gary Habermas might be a smart guy, but we sure as Hell hadn’t seen anything to prove it on that particular day. More importantly, I couldn’t help noting how much had been lost on the pastor. He had nothing to say on the topic at hand, or the arguments Habermas had made, nothing at all. The mere fact that Habermas had fielded an argument in favor of Christianity was what interested the pastor. Such an argument did exist, and its existence was a comfort to him. It should also, he thought, be a comfort to others attending his church.
This is what I mean by the narrative value of the argument. Habermas and people like him continue to make their arguments, and people like me continue to be unimpressed by them. Still, the arguments seem to hold a value in believing circles, a value almost entirely unrelated to the soundness of the arguments themselves, much less the impact of those arguments in contested circles. An apologist may fail to engage unbelievers entirely and still count as a success in believing circles. For some, it is enough to know that smart people defend the faith.
Toward what end is another question.
***
So what? Conflict is a common source of good narrative material, and conflict over religious beliefs is no different. We unbelievers have been known to tell a story or two out of season ourselves, but I don’t think we’ve established quite the market for selling to the non-choir, at least not yet. A few unbelievers may be working tales of battle into a profession of sorts, but we are generations behind the business of Christian apologetics. So, our narratives are generally more fluid, the pay-off less certain, and the likely consumers for such stories less obvious. When an atheist fields an argument against a believer, it is still reasonably likely that the believer is the actual person we are trying to communicate with. Christian apologetics, by contrast is full of people framing arguments in terms of a confrontation with unbelievers only to produce them for the benefit of other believers. It is in effect a business aimed at producing stories like those told by the pastor above, stories of reassurance.
Let’s come back to the notion that atheists can’t justify our own ethical principles. What does this contention provide when it’s construed in terms of narrative themes? I think the payoff is very clear, namely in the implied contrast. If we non-believers can’t justify our moral principles, so the argument seems to suggest, those who believe in God can. As much as people working this argument may be trying to tell us about the failures of unbelief, they are also claiming a victory for theism, or at least for specific variations of theism.
What is wrong with us, so the story goes, is we cannot justify our moral principles. We may be moral people, but our morality is lacking something, and that something is important. Don’t get me wrong; this story a damned site better than the argument that non-believers are inherently immoral, but this particular concession that we are moral without a sound reason damns us with faint praise.
What’s so infuriating about this is the difficulty of the issue. It really is very difficult to establish a rational justification for ethics. We can often establish reasonable connections between certain basic value judgements and more specific propositions (Kant’s categorical imperative could be used for example to suggest that one ought not to lie to someone else as that would entail reducing them to the status of a means to an end), but providing those basic value judgements with a non-circular justification is damned difficult. I won’t say it’s impossible, but it’s certainly difficult, and always subject to contention. Is morality deontological or consequentialist? Universal or some variety of relative? These are all pretty difficult questions, and belief in a god simply doesn’t provide an obvious solution to any of them.
When apologists pretend that atheists are uniquely unable to handle the matter, it always strikes me as a rather premature declaration of victory. As often as not, they seem to confound two or more sub-themes in these discussions. When for example a theist claims their oral principles are objective because they have been mandated by God, I find myself at a loss for words. Even an ultimate subject is still a subject, and a morality derived from the will of a subject, even an ultimate subject, is still a subjective ethics. …unless of course one can demonstrate that the subject (God) has Herself based her judgement on something objective. Or perhaps, there is an objective reason why we as subjects are obligated to do what God (that uber-subject) wishes, but that would be stretching the meaning of objectivity a bit thin. I can certainly understand someone expressing skepticism at any of the attempts to establish an objective or absolutist form of ethics, but atheists simply are not uniquely implicated in this problem. I’ve known Christians who handle this issue very well. They are not among those proclaiming to failures of atheist ethical theory to the faithful in their churches.
***
In the end, I think this theme has two significant practical implications:
First, it reverses the point of morality, at least for purposes of the narrative in question. One might expect that the value of ethical behavior would in some sense be found in the behavior itself. Those hawking the notion that atheists are unable to demonstrate a sound basis for our moral judgements are, in those moments at least, shifting the focus of the work at hand. They are in effect, presenting the intellectual justification for morality as an end in itself. The point of morality is in such stories a bit intellectual exercise. I might do right by my neighbor, so the story goes, but I don’t really know why I should do so.
And thus doing right by my neighbor becomes just a little less important.
Second, this theme seems to produce a kind of moral hierarchy. There are those of us who do right, so the story goes, and those who know why we do right, or at least why we should do so. I suppose it shouldn’t be a surprise to see this kind of division of labor appearing as a theme in apologetics, but it is fascinating to see the way it takes shape in this rhetoric. The authority of the faithful seems to colonize the world at large in these stories, and those of us who are merely moral (at best) are just a little less than those that know why we should be so. Our actions are just a little less significant than those who claim to know the objective basis for moral principles. We can say no, as I surely do, but that’s to be expected of us. The faithful know.
But of course this isn’t simply a claim to authority over the rest of us, and it isn’t even a claim that privileges the perspectives of priests and pastors, much less the avergae everyday believer. It is a claim that privileges the perspectives of apologists. Simple pastors like the man I mentioned in the story above can do their best, but it is up to the smart people who defend the faith to do the real work of ethics. The rest of us, believer and unbeliever alike can be moral, sure, but our morality will always be missing something.
Which of course makes Christian thought into a rather esoteric enterprise.
And no, that doesn’t strike me as a good thing.
But you have to admit it does feel good when smart people believe what you believe so that you don’t have to feel dumb for believing it. Right? Or should I feel dumb? Seriously, though, very intriguing post. I never thought about any need to base one’s morals on anything. I’m just glad some people have morals.
What a absolutely FUN post!!!!
1-Your paragraph on Gary Habermas made me laugh. If you look at it, you see the R party in these last months!
2-Morality: if I may bring in when I feel time began, this started back when Abel killed his brother and appeared to set the world in motion for today.
3-Ethics: So, is Trump wrong for using legal loopholes in sneaking around taxation? Don’t most of us do this? (note: I cannot STAND that man)
4-Esoteric-Naw. The whole idea of the gospel is pretty basic. Not as basic as some folks propose, but definitely less than what others may feel is ‘right’. Unfortunately, from the time of NT days til now, it has been the pursuit of man to rearrange the Greek words, sentences, and parables recorded. Often, their arranging is so skewed, I often wonder if Jesus would recognize His words. Red or not! (some Bibles highlight Jesus’ words in red ink)
5-I, myself, am a Xn (short for Christian, which also offends people..it made it much easier in Bible college to take notes, though!). It may be people think I am hypocritical in my actions and thus will bring down the wrath of non-believers who will insist my thoughts are not mine, but those of EVERY Xn soul out there. I sincerely hope not.
6-One of my very best friends in the whole wide world is an atheist. He used to be a Seminary student at Princeton, I believe. I think I’d enjoy talking to you, too!
A self-described “Godless heathen” that I know argued that being an atheist did not mean he could not have morals as high or higher than those with a deity in the driver’s seat. He said that being Godless just meant that those who did believe in God, contended that non-believers could not gain admission to heaven unless they bellied up to the born-again bar, no matter how morally perfect their earthly deeds.
My Godless heathen friend was OK with that.
Did he think that the Godless did not need a deity to “ground their morality” — that the understanding of what was, or was not, right conduct was baked right in with the rest of our humanity and was available to all – believers and unbelievers alike?
I don’t know but I’d like to get his take on it.
Euthyphro dilemma is my way of putting paid to such nonsense.
In case you don’t know what it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
That said, a liberal mush-god ground of being guy, NOT a fundamentalist or conservative evangelical, BUT, a grad student at Harvard Divinity, claimed the Euthryphro dilemma applied only to ancient Greek gods and not Christianity. What can one even say in response to such special pleading?
I am “God-less” , I have morals and no one is any higher on any pole then anyone else…even though they think so just because they “believe” ! I think people of religion need to believe in something greater then ones self….
Great Blog!! I believe in myself and that’s all I need! 🙂
“Atheists can’t provide a sound basis for their morality.”
Proven long ago: Morality is a component of any species exhibiting advanced sociality. As a result, man is not the only species exhibiting morality.
Interesting. I like smart people stuff, and this fits the bill. I kept thinking while reading about the structure of internal motivation (apologists) and external motivation (believers). Interesting parallel. For me, morality is inherent, I don’t need someone to tell me to be that way. But how did I develop that trait? I’ll think on that awhile.
Morality:
Those religious apologists touting their high moral principles probably haven’t read Deuteronomy. Kill those who try to divert you from your God? Stone your daughter to death if you find that she is not a virgin on her wedding night? Rational discourse with an apologist is about as fruitful as a conversation with Donald Trump.
Hey there. Stumbled across your blog just now. I’m a Muslim, devout but intellectual. While I’ve never been a fan of those “i know you are but what am i” shallow quips that believers have a tendency to fall into when confronted with having to rationalized their faith, this post has shifted my mind greatly. Maybe it’s your non-condescending tone towards believers, but I see that atheist or believer, there’s an individual behind those beliefs. An individual worthy of respect and validation. I think humans have a splendid way of corrupting things. That’s what’s happening to followers of mainstream religions such as Islaam and Christianity. To be authentic, I think you have to be a self-conformist and take to beliefs that resonate with you individually. And when it comes to morality, I believe it’s an innate ability that can be enhanced or dulled – but it’s in borne nevertheless. I think it comes from one’s sensitivity and empathy and observation of the world around one. Integrity. If one is being moral just to get to heaven, but they haven’t really internalized the teachings and been transformed by them, then it’s just plain hypocrisy that breeds arrogance.
I derive my theory from a saying of prophet Muhammad peace be upon him : ” The best among you in Islam are those with the best manners, so long as they develop a sense of understanding.”
So here we see that religion is supposed to complement one’s integrity and manners. Intrinsic motivation.
There’s an interesting term called spiritual bypass that describes a phenomena amongst believers where they transplant their personality and will with spirituality so as to bypass pain and self-doubt.
TL;DR : I gained a more authentic understanding of unbelievers through your post.
This is thought-provoking blog. I love what you have written here. Have you ever watched Real Time with Bill Mahr? He is an unapologetic atheist with some interesting views on the subject. I am a believer in myself and my ability to have morals.
Like Neva Knott says “morality is inherent”. Well, it should be. 🙂 On the Pastor, perhaps he was being political/correct. I realise sometimes they will not touch a guest speaker with a…ah, bible? Let them say their piece, thank them complement them and hope that their appearance satisfies the council/guild/mothers union/mens group or whoever want the speaker in the first place. It’s called clearing the agenda.
Summarizing this piece. There are people who believe in facts and rational arguments, and the there are those who prefer to be told what to believe (let’s call them Trumporables for fun) and don’t need any other justification.
Hello,
Pleasure to meet you and thank you for visiting my blog page and having a follow. I appreciate the support and look forward to reading more of your post.
Shay-lon
I’m a blood bought, evangelical Christian and I’ve never thought atheists can’t be moral. Good article.
Excellent and provocative piece. For me, I refuse to be drawn on religion, preferring to concentrate on decency, kindness and all those other bits that make it possible for us to rub along together. For this reason I prefer the term Human Kind to The Human Race …. I’m not competing with anyone and I don’t expect anyone to compete with me. For those that believe in a higher being I say lovely but don’t judge my morals or my ethics on anything other than my behavior – not what I may or may not have locked up in my head or heart. Thank you so much for following my blog – I’m very flattered and hope my discursive ramblings will not disappoint.
Personally, I think apologetics is bullshit, Christian or not. The world is too full of people in pain to sit around arguing about who understands it better and who is better equipped to heal. I’m not uber-educated, but I know my instinct. Heal what you can touch, sans motive.
I appreciate you naturally see past the religious and ethical posturing. I find myself with the same kinds of thoughts, and it’s the most liberating experience I’ve had in my 40- something years of consciousness.
It is the ultimate ccnceit of human beings to think any one “belief or “disbelief” is correct or resposnible for what is inherently programmed into our learning system. Do I believe in a Source of Origin? Yes. Do I associate with any one definition of a Creator? No. if they all think “their” god, by whatever name called, is the one true god, then I can only assume they are all in error and their is no god other than those which were contrived to bring order to s a chaotic social systm and apply meaning to life as it unfolded-someone to praise and plead with for gifts, and an opposite entity to blame for that which was deplorable. As with all human creations an inspiring idea soon became master of its Creator. In short, my feeling is not that man was created in God’s image, but that the God humankind needed was created in its own image- a jealous, angry, loving, giving, benevolent, vengeful, altruistic, domineering omnipotent being-and the epitome of oxymoron. How is it possible for a God of unconditional love to also be the god who decides whether a soul ascends to the grandeur of heaven or is cast into the bowels of a bottomless hell of fire and brimstone. Uncondtional bu its very definition would nullify the need for begging forgiveness, taking vows and speaking magic words. I am not atheist but I am neither religious. I practice gratitude, unconditional love as much as humanly possible and give much credit to my parents for passing this on. I was raised at least to adolescence in a Christain environment. But I refused to bring my own children up in any kind of church. They are living, caring, generous and morally fair. Figure it out if you must. I don’ t really care what anyone thinks. People think way too much anyway…..
Thanks for following my blog, which is much appreciated.
Sadly, I have to let you know that I have no religious belief whatsoever, but I respect those who do.
Best wishes, Pete.
Thanks for following my blog 🙂
I recently read “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins. The text was really quite irritating to begin with as he just mocked anyone with religious beliefs but once he got down to explaining why God probably doesn’t exist and how we could still be who we are I thought it was really interesting. So-called religion has an awful lot of evil to answer for in this world and is plagued with hypocrites. I am not sure at times that a lot of good seems to stem from these huge collections of believers and the amount of wealth they accumulate but maybe I am just unaware of this.
I often think that the pagan worship of Mother Nature is interesting…partly because the Christian church just tried to stamp it out and even retained words like Easter, but also partly because we are now more aware of just how important our world is and what we must do to try to protect it…some supposedly primitive cultures have long realised that…hopefully we are not too late.
I agree. I have some issues with organized religions, having grown up within one version. Riddled with guilt for my very thoughts growing up, I swore I would not raise my own children within that arena. Guess what. They are some of the most loving, generous and non judgmental human beings I know. And they are all conservation minded. Yes, we must protect what sustains us. Besides, even if one is to believe “god” gave us this Earth for our use, we were made stewards of its well being. I really want a tee shirt that says Jesus was not a Christian. Whoever and if ever he was, he was Jewish and had nothing to do with forming the church that came years after his death. And if one is to believe any of what remains intact of the original works we call the Bible, he was quoted as saying that wherever one or more is gathered in the name of love, so there is a church. No rules, no tithes, no segregation. It is always the human factor which tangles the simple joy of existing and feeling glad for it.
Great summary. Can’t fault anything you said there. 👍🏻 I think the reason mankind creates these institutions is very simple…it is just about wealth and power under a disguise. People will believe what they want to believe at the end of the day.
I think a lot about the evolution of religion vs spirituality. In all fairness to ancient humankind, I have thought initially humans needed a way to make sense of the world and their place in it. When good things happened there was a benefactor, when bad things happened, they had displeased someone or something. Thus, the need to bargain, barter and beg for good things and blame themselves or something else for the bad. Then with their own evolution the need for control kicked in, a desire to bring order, which eventually morphed into a darker agenda. I do personally hold to the idea of a Supreme Source of all that exists, have hope for its benevolent core and that there is some guiding energy whatever it may be. ✌️